We were in need of healing and these folks have loved on us, prayed for and with us and brought us back to health. Should we wonder about our salvation if we arent sure if weve produced enough? And I dont think that means denominations are bad as much as it means theyre made up of real people wrestling and changing and learning as they go.That was good. 2. I LOVE this! I totally respect what youre sayingIm just aching for unity. Theological mutt status is appealing right now. I have no idea what Moravian is. Content copyright 2013 Shaun Groves. Most people dont look at denominations the way you do. I think the problem some have with what Ive preached/written at times has been that I dont draw a distinction between the gospel or Good News and the kingdom. Because, well, Jesus didnt. I guess weve been Anabaptists all along without even realizing it. Leads me to conclusions that many would deem un-American. PS I did a series on nonviolence called Nonviolence 101 which is available here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/category/nonviolence-101-series/. In the latter it may not be based on historical teachings (directly), but more on the viewpoint of the leadership of that church at the time. Gresham is an intense and sportsy entrepreneur. Thats a gorgeous viewpoint from a matured Christian. Now you can see the danger and advantage. Well, theres a lot more to Anabaptist thought than this but this is foundational at least. I love his approach. They quote Paul who said the gospel (or Good News) was Christ born, crucified, and resurrected. They just hear Baptist and give me a pass. Great post and if you ever want to talk Anabaptism, empire, or nonviolence, hit me up! Unity, music and social work as core values. I have always thought of the good news as being ABOUT the kingdom. I think its a sign of growth. People routinely come to my site by searching shaun groves denomination or shaun groves beliefs or, yesterday, Is shaun groves calvinist?. I was born and raised in a Reformed Faith Presbyterian Church that was very Systematic in its Theology, that being Calvinist. And they treat me differently too. In most cases, the same is true of non-denominational churches. If youre a Calvinist you need to understand this about Anabaptists: Not only do we disagree with you. Aadel, I realize I must be sounding less and less reformed, but either 1) I have mistaken reformed teaching somewhere 2) you need to say more about free grace or 3) that is exactly what the reformed teaching is. Specifically about the kingdom not being the Good News? Have you even met one in America? I hear you, Shayne. When people ask me what I am I just say a sinner following Jesus trying to obey him. Is it just that the Good News being preached to the poor is one of the *signs* of the Kingdom as opposed to it *being* the Kingdom? Especially war and oaths. I agree with them. We get far too caught up in defending our doctrinal positions that they often become idols. I dont know, and frankly not having a denominational label doesnt bother me either. This may be way off topic, but my wife and I are struggling with a church covenant that has been put before us and been told to us to sign as members of our church. So maybe I do have some anabaptist tendencies. Just know the place of grace. Great post, Shaun! Right now Im listening to the Cold Mountain Soundtrack and just revelling in the harmony of the Sacred Harp Singers. Do you know how insulting that is? Im off to learn. How naughty of me! Anyway, love your perspective on denominations. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbour as yourself. If it comes to a creed, I guess thats mine. Im with Shayne. Luther, Calvin, Driscoll, Stanley, Grahamall are great speakers, thinkers and orators.. And now I would like to apologize to Shaun I feel like this is way off the post topic. Did you like that? And I have to take issue with that last statement. Elias, the lead singer guy for The City Harmonic is part of The Meeting House as well. I think they are both components of the gospel. PS. It is good to be part of the Body of Christ. Though I certainly have questions and reservations even on my best. I feel the same way. While I appreciate systematic theology, I prefer Biblical theology. But I just dont get the we are right and you are wrong aspects that get people all wadded up. BTW, thanks for prompting the discussion with your article. As a Canadian enjoying listening to this conversation quietly from the sidelines. , No, because most people dont know what that is. Just because I dont share all of the doctrinal beliefs of a particular denomination does not mean they dont have a place. Love this Shaun! I really like your musicit ministers to my soul. My relationship with each one is very different too because of their uniqueness. I know that it is stereo typically true many of my brethren think that our disagreements are in the realm of heresy but I personally think that this sort of division is far more dangerous than anabaptist theology. So as you put itI dont really know the answer and I dont know that it really matters all that much. It was like a breath of fresh air. We disagree about the importance of the disagreement. Love, love, love this statement! The more enchanted I become with Christ, the less enchanted I find myself with denominational Christianity, Its funny that every time I go to a Baptist church a minister inevitably says, Were not a typical Baptist church. Meaning what, Im not sure, but I think we all do this. Site by LOUDER media. When you say no fruit- maybe you are not a Christian -that is basing your standing in Christ upon your works. Even if it makes me uncomfortable or I dont particularly like the implications. Im a theological mutt. The series that he did this summer on various denominations was excellent (I recommended it to a certain pastor we know). I'm a speaker and musician sharing stories and songs to inspire generous living at home and around the world. :o) Im not yelling there, just making a strong point. Were mutts too. I agree with many, many points that you mentioned in this post but I also think I lean a bit more in Jareds direction. Shayne you said: Imagine how it must sound to Jesus when we identify ourselves as Baptists, Methodists, Calvinists and on and on and on. Being a theological mutt is wonderful because God instills a hope for a greater life in all of us. So their methods, values, beliefs, personality differ. Different response in Canada sometimes than the US. After spending some time in a conservative Mennonite(ish) culture, the Lord placed us in the midst of a somewhat conservative evangelical church. Important fluff to that particular church, undoubtedly, but the fluff varies from one congregation to the next and weve learned not to focus on the fluff so long as the basic things are intact. We find ourselves at odds with some of whats happening in the modern American evangelical movement, whatever that means exactly. That general statement can be applied to speeding specifically. When he found out I listen to the podcast sometimes he was so impressed I ALMOST got a free CD. BTW, you can listen to/watch all of Bruxys teachings online. Like I said above- my theology is changing. His heritage and history is one part of what makes him truly unique. Excellent post, Shawn! The very idea that Jesus is about making the world better is the very point of it being good news. My husband was raised in a godly home and expressed a faith in Christ early on. I never want to assume that someone who has walked the aisle at 15 or been baptized at 7 and then walked away from God in all visible ways is not saved. Without a little bit of ourselves inside our faith it really isnt OUR faith is it? 3. resurrection Paul had to correct them and pray that they would return. Confused? Right now I call myself Free Grace theologically but that is evolving just as my walk with Christ is. They even perceive me differently. I really enjoy and appreciate following your blog! I believe the bible. We knew a Shawn once. Hence I will only attend churches that are decidedly NON DENOMINATIONAL. Me too. Salvation is certainly Christ alone faith alone but i guess i would have to go to James and clarify what we mean by FAITH because even the demons believe and shudder. It means we can fit in anywherewe dont have to agree 100% to feel comfortable. Ultimately we learned several things. But what matters most Christ crucified and resurrected all Gods children have in common. I guess Ive never really plainly answered the question What are you? because, first of all, I dont know the answer and, secondly, I dont think it matters all that much. When I went overseas, I did so with the IMB because it didnt even occur to me that there were other sending organizations. But there are reformed who describe perseverance as something you have to constantly check yourself on to make sure you didnt miss the election boat. 4. If we can focus on individuals, remember that its about people, then the denominational beliefs start to become, as Shaun suggested, a common starting point for certain groups, not something that we need to see as a division of the church as a whole. I know you are not saying that- but it is something Ive experienced. I grew up in that same East Texas Southern Baptist church you didthen married a boy who didnt grow up in the Church, but had a lot of Church of Christ influence from his grandmother. [As they studied the bible they said to the reformers] youre not going far enough. We ask, What is the bible saying on this matter? Systematic theology is rooted in the bible, absolutely. I do have to be careful with word choice sometimes, because many of us are looking for certain key words that are heretical. But no, most people get it. But I just wanted to clarify exactly because I still think its words and which things we emphasize. I learned something along the way too. I discipline, play, joke and teach each one differently. They debated with their professors. 1 type says they went down the aisle when they were 12 so they are sure they are going to heaven. We tumble together and get free of our rough edges. Because were different we may relate to and even view God differently. The thing is, denominations are founded on the basis of a core set of beliefs, the lens through which they view the world. I grew up in the Texas wing of the Southern Baptist denomination, worked for the Methodists while in college at Baylor (a Baptist-ish school), and have sung and spoken in a church of just about every denomination over the last eleven years. I would rather take a person at their word that they trusted Christ. Im a Calvinist but I dont like to argue about predestination. Im Baptist but I dont have a problem with drinking. Im Lutheran but I have questions about infant baptism. Im Anabaptist but I buy into a lot of reformed theology too.. And I cut my teeth on a good ol Baptist hymnal in a tiny SBC church in a tiny SC town. People who view God in the same way choose to cluster together to pursue God in a common way, from a common starting point. If youre a Calvinist you need to understand this about Anabaptists: Not only do we disagree with you. I finally stopped labeling myself. The lordship salvation arguers are trying to convert the first group, who no, I really would have to question the sincerity of their faith. The next layer of leadership that had some education was slaughtered. And a couple Christian guys with pectoral muscles and no necks threatened to kick my, well, you know. LOL Aadel, thanks for making me look bad! (Totally talking to myself here, too) .